shikantaza (why is this here??)

[jcsuperstar]

i was wondering if in Theravada there is anything similar?
everything I've come across on dzogchen makes me assume it's the same as shikantaza, but is there an "object-less" meditation in Theravada?
a "just sitting"
or letting go?

[dhammanando]

Dec 29, 2008 23:05:13 GMT 10 jcsuperstar said:

i was wondering if in Theravada there is anything similar?
everything I've come across on dzogchen makes me assume it's the same as shikantaza, but is there an "object-less" meditation in Theravada?
a "just sitting" or letting go?

It depends what you mean by "similar". There are Theravadin ways of practice that are similar to shikantaza (I can't say about dzogchen) in the sense of being minimalist and to be practised without striving for anything. But in another sense they are not similar because they are practised with a completely different view.

Take Acharn Naeb, for example. Her basic instructions for satipatthana are summarized as follows:

1. When beginning vipassana, develop a thorough understanding of how all existence is composed only of mental states and matter.
2. The matter and mental states that concern you are those that occur in your own body. So to see their nature clearly, you must be aware of these moment to moment in the present.
3. Either mind states or matter should be the continual object of meditation, always those of the present moment. If feelings arise, examine these. If you lose track, don't worry. Simply start afresh on your examination of matter and mental states.
4. During practice the meditator must take care that the desire to see certain things or desire to develop certain insight is not aroused. He should simply watch his mind states and matter.
5. Don't try to examine both matter and mind states at the same time. Examine them separately, each in the present moment.
6. Stick to the four major postures: standing, sitting, walking, reclining. Avoid minor movements.
7. If it is necessary to change position, make sure to know the reason or cause for the movement before making it.
8. Use your ordinary postures and positions and examine the matter and mind states in each of your ordinary positions.
9. Try to be natural. Do not exaggerate slow walking and moving to speed up insight. This desire will block insight.
10. When practicing, don't do anything unnecessary: Don't speak more than required. Don't change postures until necessary. Don't eat, etc., until necessary.
11. Before you do anything, you must understand the necessary reason for the action. See how you are forced by suffering to do it.
12. Let go of the feeling that meditation is something special. It is not a time to acquire anything, but simply to examine the causes for our actions and the nature of our mind and body.
13. Do not try to attain any special mind states such as bliss or peacefulness through meditation.
14. The vipassana meditator must be like a spectator at a play. Don't try to direct the activity. Simply watch mindfully the constant flow of matter and mental states as they come into consciousness. This balanced state will lead to wisdom.

Notice that the last few points come very close to some of the instructions in Dogen's Fukanzazengi, but the reasons behind them aren't the same. Acharn Naeb didn't think, for example, that sitting in meditation is sitting in buddhahood. She didn't teach that the path is the goal. Her instructions are rooted not in Tathagatagarbha theory, but in Abhidhamma. If she were asked to explain the reasoning behind the above intructions, it would be something along these lines:

Vipassana involves seeing that all dhammas are not self.
Being not self means not being amenable to control.
Any moment of striving to see something or to attain something is a moment of fancying oneself to be able to control dhammas.
Any moment of fancying oneself to be able to control dhammas is a moment of greed-rooted consciousness accompanied by wrong view.
No moment of greed-rooted consciousness accompanied by wrong view can ever be a moment of seeng dhammas as they are.
Therefore vipassana is only ever developed at moments when one is not striving to see something or to attain something.

The thought-world here is a million miles away from any Tathagatagarbha-based, artificialist fantasy that sitting in zazen is sitting in buddhahood.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu

[element]

Dear Forum,

I myself regard meditation more as the application of wisdom.

What are usually called 'objects of meditation' I regard as mere sign posts.

Mindfulness is something co-joined with sampajanna. Sampajanna is applied wisdom. Buddha said:

Bhikkhus, whenever a bhikkhu is one who lives constantly contemplating body in bodies... is one who lives constantly contem­plating feeling in feelings ... is one who lives constantly contemplating mind in the mind ... is one who lives constantly contemplating Dhamma in dhammas, strives to burn up defilements, comprehends readily (sampajanna) and is mindful, in order to abandon all liking and disliking toward the world; then the sati of that bhikkhu thus established is natural and unconfused.

If we consider the Third Noble Truth, whilst it is about the final state of nirodha, if its description is taken up as a practise, this is letting go of craving and attachment, of liking and disliking. Application of the Third Noble Truth as a practice is sampajanna.

Often, anapanasati is referred to as mindfulness of breathing. However i prefer the term 'mindfulness with breathing'. As Buddha states in the sutta:

There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.

Here mindfulness is clearly something distinct from awareness of the breathing. Breathing becomes the sign of right mindfulness. One practises mindfulness in association with breathing.

Regards,

Element

[ben]

Thanks Ajahn and Element for your contributions.

I think for many people practicing vipassana involves taking an object (breath, sensation, whatever) and staying with it as a method of training oneself to observe the anicca, dukkha and anatta characteristic of phenomenon.
My own experience with the U Ba Khin/Goenka method is that after some time and experience with vedana as the object, the evanescing flora of kaya, vedana, citta and dhamma becomes the choiceless object. There is observation but no observer.
Kind regards

Ben